(image source)
Been a lot of talk last few months about Geo domains. Associated Cities have done a great job pushing Geo domains to the forefront of the domain industry however, very little have been said how to make such domains winners. The main question here is what is the plan, what is the exit? As demand for such domains is high (mostly between domain investors) most prices for such domains are retail which means, the play here isn’t PPC but either development or end-user resale.
1. Development
As discussed before, development isn’t easy and building an advertisers’ base and developing in general can be extremely difficult. If the plan is to work affiliate programs such as travel, jobs, then traffic become the cornerstone of such a site, which means, content development and SEO work. I’m not saying it isn’t possible to build a business on a Geo domain (quite the contrary) but my argument is, is it the best category, if you decide to develop, to spend your time on?
2. Resale
To me looking for end users is an extremely tough proposition. I would not consider that a viable option.
On the bright side there are at least a couple of major software development (platforms) being built for the Geo industry by top notch developers who for now are staying under the radar with their plans. Demand for these domains and a personal passion to “make things happen” got those to literally invest millions in the space. It is my personal opinion that while today Geo domains aren’t an attractive proposition (and we do own a few), in the near future, possibly 2-5 years, they may be.
Sahar
My $.02
The names are valuable if you can turn them into something. Turning them into something requires technical skills, money and time. And the most important piece of the puzzle is probably sales skills. Because it is really hard to get someone to pay you $295 for a directory listing without meeting face to face unless you have been dominating the search rankings for a long time (if you have it makes everything much easier).
It was either David or Michael Castello who recently said that a huge factor is the “sexiness”? of the location. Is it a tourist destination or no? Do people search and research the area before they go? I’m going on vacation soon and have been on probably 100 sites reading about hotels, restaurants and beaches. I’m going on a business trip next week to a boring city and I won’t visit a single website at any point before or during the trip.
Even though they are among the most expensive domains to acquire, Geodomains are still underrated.
They are easy to develop (simply build categories for hotels, restaurants, attractions, etc), receive tons of direct navigation and getting advertisers is a cinch.
I, singlehandedly, pulled in $500,000.00 in local advertising for PalmSprings.com in 1999. And it’s easier now because people know the site. We have not solicited a hotel advertiser (#1 source of revenue) since December 1999. They call us now.
We bought Nashville.com for six figures in the summer of 2003. In 90 days we doubled our money.
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Impressive numbers David. Will chat more privately about it in the near future.
Cheers
Sahar
Sahar, I kind of see the opposite as you regarding developing them. To me, actually getting your hands on a decent name is far harder and more expensive than doing the development. I’d probably approach the monetization differently as well, not that directory listings are a bad idea but if that’s all you’re doing with a great city name then you’re really missing the boat.
Great article to comment on. There is so much to this topic, however I will keep it short. Geo domains are not over rated, but under rated. The momentum is building and I concur with your assessment of the time table it will take for the industry to hit mainstream 2-4 years. Right now, there are several of geo domain owners earning over $1 million a year gross from a well developed name. This is increasing every year. This is a great start to an industry that is maturing.
We are already seeing a great deal of platforms and new media strategies transforming the internet into a local community. All the major media companies want to be 100% local. Evolution is great, where the internet used to be 100% global, and 0% local, now the tables have turned. Consumers have empowered change and demand local content. Geo domains fit right into the transformation of the internet.
Those who are buying now are pretty smart investors. But they are also the end-users to the geo domains. Most who are buying geo domains have no plans on selling anytime soon. Geo domains are guaranteed streams of revenue once developed with effective content and strategy. It would be foolish to sell, unless another end user comes along and the price is right. After all, business is business. Another reason for selling is that the geo domain does not fit into their long term goals.
Of course, there are people who make money selling geo domains, such as Rick Latona who would rather sell, than develop them. But this is a very rare thing to find in the industry. Prime geo domains for sale are rare in the domain industry, but they are available if you take the time to look and negotiate.
It is a rare moment in history to own a specific geo location that delivers a targeted service, to include the valuable city.com, state.com, and country.coms.
If you own any of the last three, you hold the keys to city, state, and country for world to visit. You are the embassador for it. (Analogy here)
Things are heating up. We have had several media companies contact us asking questions and wanting guidance on geo domains. The Kelsey group is discussing geo domains at their Drilling down on local 08 conference at the end of the month. (Big Media Company) This is only the beginning.
I also have an inside scoop on a major geo domain deal that is going to shock the domain industry and prove that what I am saying here is fact. The industry is maturing and this deal will make headlines and the geo domain industry known. It will be announced 3-6 months from now due to all the details, but it will be worth the wait when news breaks on the deal.
In my opinion, prime geo domains are going to be the most valuable domains on the planet as the industry matures and the internet continues to grow with consumers.
Everyone knows a city.com, state.com, country.com, and many travel to these locations and take pride in each. Many actually fall in love with the physical locations. No other domain offers the same characteristics that geo domains offer. (When developed properly) This also includes prime location service geo domains.
This is a great topic. So much more to say, just not the right time to discuss it. Geo domains are under valued, and certainly not overrated.
Thanks Sahar,
Steve Morales
There are so many positives to a Geodomain. It has been great ride for over 10 years for us. Here are a few up and downs that come to mind.
Upside:
There are many other geo owners that are team players and will help you. (not a lot of other domain niches that do this)
1) Many verticals (hotels, classifieds, real estate, jobs, the arts, dining, attractions, excursions, the list goes on and on)
2) A captive audience (ready made)
3) Global Reach (already visually branded)
4) Location, Location, Location (citizens will know you which equates to “political leverage”)
5) Takes very little money to develop
6) Future Technology will allow for virtual property to be sold much like Second Life. (there is a lot of money in those hills)
7) PalmSprings.com was offered 4 million dollars 6 years ago. (that’s a lot of golf!)
9) The local newspaper will hate you
Downside:
1) Could be seasonal traffic (some seasons slow)
2) Takes a lot of time to create (could be an upside if you really love the place)
3) Some local businesses at first will treat you like the plague
4) The Local Newspaper will hate you
Wow, Steve Morales you are passionate and very articulate about geodomains. Yours is the best explanation I have ever seen about geos that I’ve ever read online! I see geos as having the keys to the cities/countries/whatever. You’re basically in and the locals would be best to join and enhance the online version of the location. You guys are wealthy already so it’s easy for you to say that it’s not so hard to develop IF you can afford an “in”.
The key here is to follow the money, not follow what personal feelings about the space one might have (especially those who do not make serious money with geo domains).
I understand Michael and David Castello do well with them however, to me, from the sidelines, it seems to be the exception, not the rule.
Sahar
CMB,
Thank you for your kind words. I am far from wealthy. All anyone needs in life to become successful is opportunity, passion, and motivation to go the distance.
I failed to become successful since 1999. I never truely embraced the domain industry to the fullest and had some major setbacks. This led me to failure in the domain industry. I have no problem saying I failed. There are lessons to be learned in any failure. I learned many!
These lessons have enabled me to be placed in a very promising position as the future unfolds.
Thomas Eddison said it best “Many of life’s failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up”
“If I find 10,000 ways something won’t work, I haven’t failed. I am not discouraged, because every wrong attempt discarded is another step forward.”
I truely believe the geo domain industry will become the new stage of the domain industry. My opinion means little, and facts will evolve to prove them. In the end, it all comes down to facts.
Thank you again for your kind words.
Steve Morales
Sahar,
The sidelines are misleading and will blind you from any jackpot in life if you never get in the game. This is where all the assumptions are born, on the sidelines.
Where you as smart from the sidelines when others knew the secrets to chasing dropped domains and you did not?
Of course not, until you got in the mix and saw how big of an opportunity existed and learned how to milk it. To include the amount of money that was to be made. Once you got into the game, the rest was history. If this key move would have never happened and you remained on the sidelines, you would not be in the same position you are today.
Nothing can be learned from the sidelines. For you to say the Castello Brothers are the exception and not the rule, is definitely a false statement. There are many just like them, again, you have to be in the geo game to know. The sidelines are misleading. Just because it is not public, does not mean there are not money trails all over the place. It is priviledged information in inner circles. Most do not talk about how much their geo domains make. Why should they. Do you talk about how much you make with your domain portfolio? Of course not. No reason to do so. They know what they make and are very content. Trust me when I tell you this.
Get in the geo game, and stop being a spectator making misleading statements. You own great geo domains collecting PPC dust!!!
Respectfully,
Steve Morales
Great subject. What about Geodomains targeting law firms. For example, if I live in Saratoga and need a lawyer or am an existing client of a law firm am I going to remember a url such as WilliamsAnusSmithSonseni.com or is it easier to use http://www.saratogalawfirm.com
If I wanted to buy the Saratoga Law Firm url above what do you think would be a reasonable price to pay? Wouldn’t there be a premium?
One day I’m sure we will play in this game, but today, I don’t see the urgency you see. Our time in the business world (and on this planet) is limited and one needs to carefully choose what one wants to do. Once a choice is made, focus and massive action are key to success.
One thing to note, I did not make any misleading statements here. For every one person that makes money with geo domains I can point you to a hundred who own such properties and do not. To understand if the driving force here is geo domains all you need to ask yourself is whether the same individuals who have created these successful organizations/sites would do well in other things if geo domains weren’t their focus today? I believe many of them were successful before domains, and would have been successful without geo domains.
The real opportunity here isn’t geo domains or any type of domains for that matter, but for investors, it is investing in the right people and companies.
Sahar
I want to clarify something (and I don’t mean to sound elitist), but Geodomain to me means city.com, state.com or country.com (examples: Nashville.com, NewYork.com or Canada.com).
I know of no one with one of those types of names who is not doing well. If there is, please contact me or my brother Michael. We’re always looking to buy.
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I happen to know of a few for the mere fact we own a few. Just because they are not selling doesn’t mean they are doing well with them. Check a list of all countries and all U.S states and you will see many who likely make PPC type income on these domains rather then successfully developed sites.
Sahar
Sahar, the subject was and is “Are Geo Domains Overrated?” . How did we get off track and start talking about people being successful outside of geo domains and the domain industry and investing in the right people and companies?
Diversion from my comments above?
You state you can point out a 100 who are not successful to every 1 that is. This can be done in any market and industry in the world. Not revelent here. No brainer. The key here is to focus on those who are successful with geo domains and that is what people need to consider when making a decision. Since when does someone look at those who have not made it to make a determination of whether they should strive for excellence?
Did you have the opportunity to read my Thomas Eddison quotes above?
Im dumbfounded with your last comment and I am sure others as well.
The bottom line is people must embrace what they believe in and the path they want to choose in the domain industry. For many, it is evolving into the geo domain industry. For others their are plenty of other opportunities.
You Win, if this is your goal. Life is good!
To The Castello Brothers ,
I have seen you guys on almost every blog telling folks they need to join the ICA then see that you guys joined up under the “under $200,000 revenue” membership type…but then you say here you guys made 500k then you doubled 6 figures in 90 days.
Can I ask why you only donate such a minimal amount?
You seem to make such a big fuss about everyone donating to the ICA but then only donated $1,000 yourselves…when you guys are two of the most succesful guys in this business.
Sahar, for sure geodomains and not overrated but if anything underrated. Print media has traditionally always been associated with geo in name, ie Washington Post, Chicago Tribune, New York Post, LA Times, etc and they are slowly but surely moving online and so is media. A generic city, state, or country name is an extremely powerful brand that attracts loyalty, via news, sports, businesses, tourism, etc
Development is already on the rise. I for one have already started a media centric geo network and there are many others on the way sprouting up everywhere that are very interactive….Good expamples are Boston.tv, Montreal.tv, Nebraska.tv, Tulsa.tv, HiltonHead.tv, HamptonRoads.tv….the list goes on….2009 will prove to be a great eyeopener for geo domains.
WQ:
We are going to auction a name and give the proceeds to the ICA. I can assure you it will be worth more than $1,000.
Sahar you have alot to learn about making money and building a business in Geo industry. I suggest you subscribe to Associated Cities free newsletter and follow the Simplygeo.com industry blog. If you join AC as a member you will also learn from the leaders in this industry by being part of the City Members email list.All it takes to make it in this industry is hard work and running a real company. In essence all the sucessful Geo Domain operators are doing is putting up a tourist magazine, local city magazine, Newspaper type content online. NEW MEDIA BUSINESS. Our success is we come from the Media Magazine world not the computer programming world. I do not blog often as I simply do not have time. I am happy to talk to you more on how to take the names you have and increase not only your revenues but also the values. Just one of our names if you valued it at 10x net earnings , thats real earnings would be 10m. We still have a long way to grow.I can assure you we would not take 10m cash for this asset.
Great post and dialogue, however: was there an ulterior message about the frailty of Geo domains names implied by showing southern Manhattan with the WTC? As a new yorker and seeing as these buildings fell almost seven years ago I find it unsettling.
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No relation at all, pure coincidence. This image is the third image in Google Images for the search term “New York” and at first glance seems nice enough to post here (and linked to the source). Didn’t notice the WCT buildings until you pointed it.
http://images.google.com/images?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&q=new+york&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi
Sahar
Sahar,
I would have to 100% agree that GeoDomains present one of the best investment opportunities in the domain industry today. City/State/Country .com’s are money trees, growing quite instantly with development, *no doubt. People instinctively type in *(AND expect) a great site on their respected city of interest. The reality is however, MANY of these Geo’s are not fully developed, which in turn means they are not reaching their maximum potential, (as like MANY prime, generic domains).
In my opinion, it is just a matter of time before these GEO domain prices double and triple. When you actually break it down…it’s a “no-brainer”. How? Why? Well, with the correct staff and business model, these domains can produce MILLIONS of dollars per year. (Ask Miami/Cincinnati.com what they made…you’d fall over.
Think about it! If a developed generic GEO is running into high six and even 7 figure ranges in some cases while only representing a fraction of the actual *potential, then yes, this hands down underlines the FACTS that GEO domains are the king of kings.
I think it’s becoming more evident that the major media companies have been forced to educate themselves on the power of domains, especially GEOS.
Which brings me to a good point; Education combined with Evolution = .TV
I know this topic is more sensitive to some than others, which IMO is a very bold and arrogant attempt by some individuals to CONCEAL and IGNORE the incredible potential of .TV and ESPECIALLY GEO.TV domain names. This is not an argument of type-in traffic folks! The traffic will come, because PEOPLE want TV/VIDEO/LIVE STREAMING/Broadcasting ETC. ETC. ETC. Not me, but the 1.5 BILLION internet users… This is a FACT! AND facts ARE facts! People DO NOT know NOR care about TUVALU, period! Get over it. I am a realist to the bones and the reality is simple. The Internet is changing with and because of technology.
.TV made ZERO sense in the mid to late 1990’s. Even into the early years of this decade the pieces of the puzzle were still missing. Today, however, things ARE developing and the overall picture is starting to make sense, a LOT more sense–and CENTS.
.TV has sparked the interest of thousands of people and businesses around the GLOBE, not to mention the closet domainers that invest in .TV behind the scenes. WHY? As we all know “TV” means the same thing around the globe, and with development, technology and time…mark MY word, .TV will be the 2nd biggest TLD in the world and the traffic will come. It just makes too much sense to be ignored.
MLB.TV and MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL owns EVERY SINGLE team name with .TV…that’s a start, but…hundreds of Forbes and Fortune companies have invested and or developed .TV sites, period. RealMeals.TV perfect! BrightCove.TV great! Blip.TV wow! LX.TV $10 MILLION USD acquired by NBC. Overlay.TV $4.6 in VC…this is NOT a trend or fad! uStream.TV worth $50 million plus according to Microsoft…
Speaking of CITY.COM’s…OklahomaCity.TV was good enough for them, so they passed on the .com version for $800k. This trend will be interesting to follow as a very viable and exciting business avenue and alternative.
Macon.TV and Nebraska.TV are PRIME examples of the shift already taking place from ABC! (AND LET ME SAY, in my personal opinon, MR. RUPERT MURDOCH, YOU are FOOLISH for not buying NEWS.TV) Tulsa.TV has 10 employees people and owns 12 U.S. State.TV’s and 4 city.TV’s. Point being THEY are NOT going away anytime soon. Speaking of that point, they actually have more traffic than Tulsa.com! Similar to Boston.TV they actually have an deal with Boston.com. LasVegas.TV is for sale for $1,000,000 and Vegas.TV sold in 2004 for $350,000! HOW DO YOU IGNORE THIS? HamptonRoads.TV is successful and they (Landmark) also own Baltimore.TV and Richmond.TV, go figure. They also own Weather.com, I mean Weather.TV. These trends, interests, and developments CAN NOT BE IGNORED. IT HAS NEVER HAPPENED with .net, .info, .org, .us, .ws, .name, etc, etc, etc. The .TV TLD is the FASTEST GROWING TLD…EVER–(-VERISIGN).
Sorry for the short tangent, but this is NOT a competition. Geo domain owners are a special breed and should support each other! It is very frustrating to continue to see industry leaders and respected figures act as if it didn’t exist. In reality the credibility will continue to evaporate with time, as more people chose sides. I WANT the .com owners to continue their successes, as it will ONLY increase the value of Geo .TV domains. Also, I love CityRealEstate.TV’s as a great investment as more and more Real Estate agents are looking for creative and effective marketing tools and resources.
I hope I didn’t offend anyone.
NY
More comments, my advice is if you own a great Pure Geo.com Domain and can’t make it happen for many reasons, you can still achieve great success in partnering or creating an Alliance with someone who can. 25-50% of something great is much better than 100% of something that is not. Further smart talented people don’t work or build someone elses business, they will need to be part owners. Try and control 100% forever your life will be full of turmoil and revolving doors.
The people who are sitting on these great assets are not only destoying the Brand they own but just sending more business to Google , not to mention holding back our Geo Domain industry. They are also cutting themselves out of a lot of extra money and increased asset value as well. To park these names and simply sit back and brag about what you own and collect money from Google as one of their many Prostitutes is not the way. I am also guilty of this, but with many Geo and non Geo names its hard to escape or give up the Google Checks in The mail. I understand !!!
For those who have great PURE GEOS ONLY you are lucky and there are many great options for you. Country.com’s, State.coms and City.com’s going know where but up as empty property and much much higher developed. Don’t just sit back and wait find somneone who can help you make it happen, thats what I did in the beginning and it worked out great.
Keep you eyes on Simplygeo.com blog for the new legal section, they will have template Internet Legal Agreements that will also help you and your lawyers negotiate and protect you assets if you decide to work with others. The key to great partnerships is signing agreements that cover all bases to keep Good Partners Good and Partners Gone Bad Good. We have developed LLC’s and manamgement agreements that leave no room for error or risk. Believe it or not !!! Further all our management agreements are done on gross revenues not net, so all partners know exactly what they will get once different revenue levels have been acheived. The days of signing a net agreement is over and designed to screw your partners and investors. Our agreement give the same protections to the 25% shareholder as the 51% owner. This is the only way for long term stability and success. Hope some of this late night live rom Buenos Aires talk helps. Check out Buenosaires.com I think you will like it. In Spanish and English language. Buenos Noches
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Agree on partnership importance. I will add though your argument here of “destroying the space” is quite similar to what others over the years (and still) think about your own properties. Some may say only the official city/country should own these, others may say they can do a better job than you. It’s each owner’s choice to choose what to do with them and I don’t believe anyone is destroying the space by not developing. Missing on potential? Sure, however, most of us, like you, have many other things going to concentrate on in our businesses and frankly, as a geo domain owner, I do not see the attractiveness (compare to other areas of our businesses) nor the urgency to develop these today.
Sahar
Sahar,
Are you just trying to stir the pot with this question? You propose only two points to prove your case and they are not that strong. Don’t get me wrong, I love reading your blog and you are right about everything else but I don’t understand how you can be a geo-hater
Seriously, I think the comments above make the case FOR geodomains.
So, if you can take a name like FuneralHomes.com and make it a success, I would think making a geo domain a success would be easier than you think.
C’mon now tell us, you are secretly buying geodomains
Rob
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Rob,
I don’t hate geo domains, I think they are over rated compared to other groups. And yes, my motives must be that we want to buy them as cheaply as possible (what other motives may I have?), just as many as we buy .mobi and IDN’s, .asia, and .eu
Sahar
Sahar,
Again, this is not about you and your preferences. The question was Are Geo Domains Overrated? You got several replies from many on this subject at hand.
It is apparent at least in my eyes after reading this topic, that geo domains are underrated and not overrated, at least in this small sensus. If your opinion is to be the final word, then perhaps you should have just stated: “Geodomains are overrated!” and closed the comments section. Much more effective and your opinion is known.
When you open a discussion to the community, the worst thing you can do is push your opinion that is obviously going against the grain with this topic. (Probally the reason why you are causing this comotion, more blog replies)
Just because you do not agree with geo domains, does not mean the industry is going nowhere nor does it mean it is not a very profitable part of the domain industry. Again, your opinion is really limited here, as you continue to sit on the sidelines(owning great geo domains) and have no true insight to geo domains(other than PPC performance). At least be willing to learn more about the geo domain industry and become educated, before making a stand publicly.
By the way, the reason most prime geo domains are not developed, is because many do not know how to develop them. Those that are owned by geodomainers are getting to those names, they are working in stages because time is limited. Development takes work. Other owners of geo domains simply rely on PPC. God forbid you would have to work to make money with domains on the internet. In the end, facts will be the only thing that matters.
Opinions are meaningless for the must part, unless embraced with facts. The facts have been outlined, and many more to come as the industry unfolds. Geo domains remain underrated. There is no other domain that can match the characteristics of a great geo domain that is an intimate brand known by consumers.
Respectfully,
Steve Morales
Sahar you again have so much to learn about this industry. Again if I and others do not develop the names with useful content we not only hurt the space we hurt/destroy the brand and just send users to Google/Yahoo etc versus typing in next time directly the Geo.com name to by pass a search. What I would like to see us all acheive as City.com owners worldwide is just like when you want to buy a book you type in Amazon.com, Google has no effect. This will be accomplished as these names continue to get into the hands of those who can efectively develop these properties.
People who say only the Official Country/ City/ State Government should own these also have a lot to learn and this even destroys the brand even more and rendeers it useless. Governments first of all can’t run anything like private enterprise. Further Governments can not act as a for profit media company. A City/ Country/ State.com brand as a media company can offer all types of info,all city Government info which we have rights to use all this content as a tax payer, Classifieds, Hotels, Restuarants, Personals, Radio, Video, Local Jobs, Realestate this is what people are looking for, governments are not allowed to go into the media business, just like Chambers of Commerce, they are not allowed to compete with their local media members and if they did they would be sued. Plus they are all Non Profit type entities this type of structure never works in building a viable company andis not the intention to do so I hope this helps those who thought otherwise
Sahar to be successful as we all know you must stay focused. Yes I have many things going on but mainly focused on the Geo space and is the reason for our success. Those who do the same also can be. Sounds like you are not as a Geo owner, don’t blame the space blame yourself as it seems you efforts are elsewhere. The attractiveness of a Geo over many other Internet business is it has much less failure rate and much easier to run and develop and as soon as you get some content up with an attractive site, they never fail at this point unless management is totaly incompetent and always make some money even if it is Google Ad Share in the beginning.The larger traditional medias are also becoming more aware just how important owning an intuitive brand is for building a successful media online business and presence.
Sahar send me what Geo Names you own and I will tell you what you are missing and need to do. However if you do not take it serious , I can not help you. No urgency no money
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Skip,
Because I don’t think geo domains are the best category it means I’m not a geo domain owner? I guess the next conclusion is the obvious, what Rob said half jokingly, that I’m trying to undermine the market so I can scoop them all.
I feel now I’m back talking to .Mobi fanatics instead of real business owners.
To clarify this (not that I have to) I will say we own some of the best geo domains out there, invested heavily in other geo portfolios (equity stakes), and have well over 300K domains under management, many of which are geo domains.
Sahar
@Michael C: Thanks for the morning laugh (”The local newspaper will hate you.”)…our area newspaper, the Ventura County Star (one of the Scripps periodicals) cut off my ads last month; saying my ads/ ConejoValley.com was “a conflict of interest.”
My actual ad rep’s still scratching her head wondering what her boss’ problem is over this (I even give them a nice, free link on my home page)…
…as if they can afford to lose anymore ad revenue.
But that’s O.K., since the area free weekly paper (which is excellent and very well read) loves my ad revenue, isn’t worried about the competition, and has 3x the circulation of the Star anyway.
Everyone is partly correct. If the name of the game is to improve your lifestyle, then development might not be the way to go. But if the name of the game is to maximize a specific name’s value, then it might be best to develop.
With development you need to trade away part of your life for bigger profits, while collecting dollars from PPC is the ultimate turn key business…once you have put in the time to acquire the name.
For those with thousands of names, or even those with 10-20 good or great names, development defeats the whole purpose of domaining, which is to improve your lifestyle.
To me, the best lifestyle is having free time and not having to answer the phone, not having to be “on call”, not having to “troubleshoot”. Other people may enjoy developing a great name and they will likely get out of it what they put into it, but there are only so many hours in the day…and in your life.
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Nicely said, partially correct as well as there are many ways to climb a mountain, some of which are to be part of a development project and still have a lot of free time to do what one wishes (find qualified partners to work with, invest in the right people).
Sahar
Steve Morales,
What is one of your geo domains (besides your blog) that you have developed and turned into a good money maker (profit wise)?
I think showing everyone will be the way to make them believe versus just talking about it.
WQ,
First you have the odasity to attack the Castello Brothers in a public forum on the amount they have donated to the ICA. The amount they have selected to donate makes no difference. The fact that they have given is the focal point that they support something bigger than themselves. Monetary donation is of little revelence, honestly.
Very unprofessional and insulting to 2 individuals who have consistently given without asking nothing in return to many domainers who are starting out, and to established domainers. Apparently, your attempt to put them on the spot backfired as David acknowledged your comment articulate and professional. A trait many lack in this industry.
Now you want geo domain validation from me, based on what I own. You are too funny. If the comments here from proven professionals have not convinced people, ie “YOU” and others, of what geo domains have to offer, then obviously there is no hope for you or others to grasp the concept. Which is not a bad thing, it just means geo domains are not your cup of coffee. Listing what I own has no revelence to this discussion.
The question was and is “Are Geo Domains Overrated?”. It is funny how people manifest things to push their agenda. I have remained consistent on this topic thru all my posts and stand behind my comments.
My objective here is not to force my opinion on anyone, but to lay facts on the table for readers to digest when they are ready. Facts tell the story, not opinions. These facts were outlined by proven professionals in the geo domain industry posting here and doing business daily in stealth mode.
With that being said, read my posts on this subject from the beginning thouroughly, to include my “about me” on the blog. I have no hidden agenda and have remained an open book to read to all in the industry. I stated these key facts on this blog openly; I am not wealthy, I was a failure in the domain industry due to major setbacks, and I have been given opportunity, awaken passion and motivation in the geo domain industry.
I ask everyone who wants to sharp shoot me one question. Why do you think Skip Hoagland, one of the top geo domainers in the world, select to partner with Steve Morales to exploit the geo domain industry? Keep in mind, he came to me, I did not come to him. I can tell you, it is not because of what I own. I am no dummy. There are so many untold stories in the domain industry, that would give individuals the credibility they deserve, but those are the stories you will never hear about. As they would deliver the true character of individuals who have built wealth off of others hard work.
Watch as we assist in exploiting the geo domain industry. This will give individuals the validation they are in search of for geo domains.
In conclusion, opportunity only exists to those who are constantly in search of it. You can continue to stay focused and close minded on those who have “made it” and wish it was you, or you can take charge of your own destiny and embrace opportunity. It comes in a variety of manifestations. Geo domains are just one of those opportunities that exist and remain underrated. Complacency stunts growth.
V/R
Steve Morales
FYI Steve, many who have not posted here agree that geo domains may very well be over rated. From personal discussions with others in the space (few calls today), following the money trail vs. ideals, I can surely tell you that while there are opportunities in geo domains (no one is disputing that) there are either equal or better opportunities elsewhere. What am I basing this on? actual experience building and investing in businesses in the last few years.
If one has to invest their time, effort, energy, skills, and money into a new venture online then is Geo domains where the best potential/success-rate the place to do so? Maybe some day, but to me, looking at what’s out there, looking at what others have done, today does not seem to be the day.
Sahar
I’ve run and built businesses.
If there is any facet of the domain industry not overrated, it would be geodomains.
Wow, who would have guessed that Geodomains would have elicited so much passion? The bottom line is that Michael and I have been developing city.com Geodomains for over ten years. Sahar, you are correct. I checked and there are some state.com and country.com Geodomains that are parked. I have to admit that this is completely alien to me. Michael and I own only city.com Geodomains and our focus has only been in that arena. Making money with city.com Geodomains, particularly US city.com Geodomains, is so incredibly easy that parking one (even a state.com or country.com) is something I can’t comprehend.
That being said, readers may want to follow the current exploits of Elliot Silver. He is new to the Geodomain world and has recently acquired Lowell.com, Salinas.com and, most importantly, Burbank.com (great name). For the last two months I have been giving him advice (I even gave him my unused copy of Dreameaver) and he’s already off to the races and starting to monetize his city sites. He’s having a blast and I think that his perspective and opinions would be invaluable to anyone considering investing in Geodomains.
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David,
Great to hear you’re helping Elliot, hope it works well for him.
Sahar
Boy this thread gone full throttle. One last thing I want to add. When I first got into the internet in 1993, I had this vision of a virtual world that people could enter and be what they wanted to be, go where they wanted to go. Release from a hectic world, escapism on a grand scale. We realized the virtual world needed to replicate the current one but the difference is that we could build it with all of the good, beautiful things that we loved most within our own towns and cities. We didn’t need to put in the things we didn’t like. We could almost make them “ideal”?.
As we progress and connect the geo dots, the public will be able to walk into our new world and I think they won’t leave. We are in the early stages of building out this vision. We have proven that we can control it and make money from it and in the process actually change our own lives. That is very powerful. Making sites that are profitable are one thing. Building out a future world is another. Geodomains have taken that first successful step in building that world.
Hi Sahar
It was very intresting reading your post.
I congratulate you telling everyone that geonames are not cool,
and I would agree with you on that if you can please keep posting then i might be able to buy the best branded names on the planet at fraction of the price.
For a Geo name to work parking the name is a waste of time.
if you own a name and your the other side of the world you can forget that also.
the only real Geo names that work are names where you must do the footwork and go and meet the people who are going to spend the money with you.
Also one good geo name will set you up for life where you will be able to earn a very good living with out to much hassle.
Get to know your area every street every local business and the contact you will build up are more valuable than anything else.
yes it takes time but rome was not buit in a day and the rewards are good.
Michael and David have done a fantastic job and i would say to any
people involved if your going to get into geo domain go to next associated cities meeting.
You will learn far more there than any other domain show.
2 years ago I went to associated cities chicago show and it opened my eyes to what i was doing wrong with my geo names and we did the changes and wouild like to thank michael and david for the help along with Josh of chicago and Dan Pacarano and Skip and the rest of the cities crew.
We came back from the show and all can tell you today id our local papers will not take our adverts and yes the tourist board hate us.
and when you get that kind responce from established business you know your doing well.
if you look at a map your geo name is already there its branded with out the cost
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That’s a great post Tommy, thanks for that. Again, what you just said is strengthening my belief that they are over-rated in the current marketplace where people who do not live in these areas buy them for currently retail+ and 1. do not live in the area in order to execute well and 2. will not go the distance to go and sign advertisers. What you described is building a business and while the domain may help (it likely will, 2%-5% of the business is my guess) it by no means responsible for the success (or failure) of the venture.
It’s great to hear geo domain owners come together to help one another. This is a great selling point and adds to the geo domain industry. I personally love that sort of community and many of the people involved are great people, some are close friends of mine. With all that said, what I’m trying to point out is that if you run a a real business, which you must in order to extract the value from geo domains, you can do the same and better in other categories. If that is the case, then my argument that they are over-rated, although an option amongst others, is viable.
Sahar
Sahar,
Concur with you that there are multiple opportunities in every industry of the world. Some are more appealing than others. Additionally, some of these opportunities can make business easy and build revenue faster. These are the most sought after opportunities from entrpreneurs and seasoned investors. However, these same opportunities have the highest failure rates.
Just take the domain industry for example. Easy money, with the right game plan and education. How many do you think embraced this opportunity and failed over the years, 100,000, 200,000?. Why is there only a handful of truely successful domainers, in an industry of thousands. If domaining was easy, dont you think there would be a higher success rate? Nothing in life is easy. It is all about hard work, education, opportunity, being in the right place at the right time, and with the right people to guide you in order for you to take advantage of an opportunity. Of course there are thousands of other of opportunities that you can invest your time, money, and energy on, and get a ROI. It all comes down to what you believe in.
It takes time to become educated in order to take advantage of any opportunity. Hard word is hard work. How you do it in any industry, will determine the revenue streams it delivers.
I am in no way saying that geo domains are the holy grail to the domain world, nor am I saying that everyone should jump in the geo game. Quite honestly, it is not for everyone. It is like anything else in life, and appeals to a certain type of crowd with a different set of goals than the average domainer. If you own great geo domains, develop them, or partner with someone who will develop it for you on a 50/50 partnership or sell them to someone who will develop it. There are options, and it is certainly not a black and white game plan. Plenty of gray to work with.
The biggest opportunity evolving here for everyone in the domain industry is the internet evolving into a local platform for consumers. Do you have any clue how big this opportunity is for those who have the right game plan? Pretty big. This is not opinion, but fact.
Everything on the internet is going local. Geo domains deliver the best local platform in the world, so long at they contain effective content. It is really a no brainer. Again, the opportunity is the local market evolving on the internet. What other domains match this new industry trend that has the same intimate branding power as a geo domain? There are none.
Again, people will decide what is best for them, their money, and their strategy. Rare opportunities only come once in a blue moon. If you are always trying to compare something new with something that is or was, you will never benefit from a new opportunity that presents itself.
True wealth has been built just like this for thousands of years.
History has taught us this over and over, yet people remain complacent with what is, rather than what is evolving. Again, I lay this discussion on the table for readers to digest when they are ready.
This has been a great subject, and I would like to thank you for starting it Sahar. It has been very educational to many on both sides. I wish everyone success in all they do and embrace. Good Luck!
Respectfully,
Steve Morales
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Great post here Steve, on the money. Thanks for participating as well, was a pleasure.
Sahar
As Executive Director of Associated Cities, I have researched and been privy to the stats of many of our member sites, who are all well developed, intuitive city-dot-coms. Many of our sites see over 70% of their traffic as direct navigation, search engine independent. All of our member sites that I have researched see over 50% of their traffic as direct navigation. To claim that only 2%-5% of a pure GeoDomain’s business is related to the domain is off base. It is so far beyond the pale that I felt I had to respond.
The Greenspun Family, who owns Vegas.com, purchased a 100 year lease on LasVegas.com for over $12M in June of 2005 for one reason - the name. They have recently signed a management agreement to run Mexico.com for one reason - the branding power of the name.
The CVB (Convention and Visitors Bureau) for the city of Chicago chose to brand their city around the domain ChooseChicago.com. They spend millions each year branding their website in all of their radio, print, and on-line advertisements branding a domain name with nearly zero intuitive traffic. They could have put one or two years of their advertising budget to purchase the domain Chicago.com and capture the 50% intuitive traffic to the domain. Instead, their radio ads say “blah, blah, blah, Navy Pier, Sears Tower, visit our website, Choose CHICAGO.COM.”? What domain does the end user typically remember when they hear that ad? CHICAGO.COM.
We continue to watch the decline of daily print media. A few of these companies, like McClatchy, Scripps, and Gannett have been wise to purchase some pure GeoDomains in cities where they have print publications. Others have chosen to brand their online presence on non-intuitive domains; The St. Louis Post Dispatch has the best website for St. Louis information - their website is STLToday.com. They do very well with this site (primarily local traffic), but imagine if they had StLouis.com! Gannett owns Cincinnati.com and claims to make $30M/year in advertising revenues.
Looking into my crystal ball - as the daily print media goes the way of the dinosaurs, I expect they will be willing to do whatever it takes to purchase the prime GeoDomain in their markets. Timeframe - 5-10 years.
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Good info here Patrick, I do see your point but just remember, if the owner of Chicago.com is not developing it, meaning putting the effort to create content, get and keep advertisers, put a value offering, work SEO, what is the value of Chicago.com then? See, even Chicago.com, as great a geo domain it is, without the proper development it is just another prime domain. I know because we own so many of these, best domains in the world for their categories parked and as Skip or Steve said, collecting PPC dust. What one can do? Develop. But when you do develop, again, in comparison to other categories, is geo domains better then other prime domains in other categories? I still think not.
Sahar
Sahar, You replied to David Castello that you know about GeoDomains because “we own a few.” I know the owners of every notable US city-dot-com’s, and you are not one of them. With all due respect, what great GeoDomains do you own that you would have such a luke-warm opinion of them?
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You must be joking asking me this question but apparently, you do not know your own industry very well. Do you have any idea what we own? Where we invest? who we partnered with? the size of our organization? our related companies worldwide, as all our passive investments (equity investments, ppc domains), are private.
Sahar
Which notable US city.com is parked right now? Exactly.
Patrick,
Sahar and Jeff own quite a few great geodomains.(I know of a few) This should not be questioned, nor is it revelent to this discussion. What is important are the facts that you have outlined for others to digest.
Great input Patrick.
Respectfully,
Steve Morales
Patrick:
Was that a trick question?
With the exception of Aspen.com, every major US city.com (and destination) is developed.
Great posts by everyone here! I have thoroughly enjoyed reading everyone’s comments and opinions, which leads me to my post. One quick note before elaborating, are only good geo domains US based? Without looking into our portfolio I found a fairly popular city/state domain that is parked http://www.washington.com and a few others, neither here nor there, it seems people really get fired up and personal about things when there is a little passion involved especially related to a business interest.
Onto my response, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and if I am interpreting it correctly Sahar’s opinion is there may be better opportunities out there based on the market prices or selling prices of geo domains, that’s all, granted everyone here has made great points about how great geo domains are however many have overlooked that successful geo domains are not developed domain names but developed businesses and again if I am interpreting it correctly Sahar’s opinion is that there are better opportunities in other domain names and industries. Developing a business is tough and definitely not for the faint at heart, have a look at a previous post http://www.conceptualist.com/2007/08/03/guest-post-recall-media-group-ceo-darren-cleveland-on-development/ and I will venture to say like many industries that the 90/10 rule applies in geo domains that is 10% of the geo domains generate 90% of the business. I commend the guys that have been successful however consider they are definitely the exception, there are 20,000 or so US only cities and I would also venture to say that less than 1% are fully developed {Just a guess}(not redirected, not Adsense, not affiliate based) but actually functioning as stand alone businesses. The one benefit of developing a business around a geo domain is you get access to a great group of people that are willing to help and that is great. There are very few industries in the world that I have come across where there is such a community involvement and I think from that perspective its fantastic but none the less in my opinion developing a business in the geo space is difficult, probably one of the more difficult of all businesses out there, mainly for the fact that you have to be nearly everything to everyone and doing so is difficult, some would argue well $1mm in ad revenue is a lot of money and I guess its all relative but based on total ad spending for a specific city in this particular case it is a small piece of the pie therefore may pose as an opportunity for some and obstacle for others each person will have their opinion for which no one will be right or wrong because some will succeed and some will fail and none unfortunately for the most part will be based solely on what domain name they develop but the plan and the implementation of the plan to create a successful business model.
I think topics of this nature are very healthy and definitely get people involved and I encourage it but I do want to point out that many of the posts in this thread are simply opinions and not facts, facts are quantifiable, opinions are just that opinions, therefore trying to disprove someone’s opinion without understanding their full point of view only makes many of the responses seem a bit unprofessional and personal stabs, at least in my opinion!
Continued success to all!
Darren Cleveland
President
Recall Media Group
Excellent post, Darren.
All Geodomains can be monetized, but (in our experience) US city.com Geos are the easiest and make the quickest return. Yes, there are 20,000 US city.coms in the US and all can be developed/monetized, however, the top 1% (200) cities/destinations are the easiest moneymakers.
I think part of the problem with this thread is that no one was qualifying which Geodomains they had in mind with their comments. No can argue that owning a SanFrancisco.com, Nashville.com or Atlanta.com is the literal equivalent of owning beachfront real estate. I packed up the T-Bird in 1998 and drove from Florida to California because I knew in my heart that PalmSprings.com was going be a huge moneymaker. On the other hand, I wouldn’t have put my key in the ignition if it had been Pomona.net.
Darren,
The opportunities and hard work scenario has been delivered at least 3 times in this post. I guess a 4th won’t hurt.
Finally, it is nice to see someone defending Sahar’s position. Oh wait, you work for him.
I’m just mesing around with you, don’t take it personal please.
Apparently, everyone continues to get off the subject here. The question was short and to the point. “Are Geo Domains Overrated?”
I think the best way to get input and a difinitive answer on this Subject would be to put a poll up with 4 choices.
Are Geo Domains Overrated?
-Yes, they are overrated
-No, they are underrated
-Could care less, I invest in other things
-Will wait for the future to unfold
Apparently, open discussions and “facts” outlined on both sides are not getting to the bottomline of the question on hand without diversion
Though it is has been very enjoyable stimulating the brain with all this content.
Can you put up a poll, I am curious to see how others feel about this subject that are lurking among the post.
Respectfully,
Steve Morales
While not in answer to Sahar’s question, I thought I’d throw out there that, by definition, geo-domains lend themselves to ccTLDs, not .com.
Doesn’t that mean .us is a better and more natural bet in this space?
gee wiz:
Great question. Yes, ccTLDs do quite well in their respective countries (dotDE is a major force in Germany). However, Americans have always related to dotCOM as if it was their own baby (actually, it is our own baby).
Because of this, dotUS Geodomains receive very little (if any) direct navigation. And if a Geo doesn’t receive direct navigation…
But isn’t the main thing about .com just that it was developed first? Won’t this intenational custom ultimately win, and also where .com has no geographic meaning?
DotCOM is forever branded into the public’s psyche like a thuderbolt. And, yes, it has to do with the fact that it was there first. It’s not called the dotCOM revolution for nothing.
However, to me, DotCom is most powerful for branding something in the US and Worldwide. For example, a dotDE could give a dotCOM a run for the money in Germany, but I would take a dotCOM over dotDE if I wss trying to capture a worldwide audience.
And you also stated something extremely important: dotCOM has no geographic meaning.
This is not a weakness. In fact, it is dotCOM’s most powerful marketing factor.
Sure but geo domains aren’t worldwide things, they’re very specific, just viewed from anywhere.
At any rate, a pleasure talking,
This is a fantastic discussion! I have learned so much from reading all these detailed and valuable replies from some of the best players, thanks to Sahar, Steve, the Costello Brothers and everyone else. I’ve been reading and learning all week. This is why blogging is great.
Great points all. Many people make points suggesting that “everyone always says…..” or “everybody thinks that…”. As if you can just group everyone together as if it’s fact. Ultimately, dont we need to ask by “whom” Geos are overrated to ascertain if Sahar’s statement is accurate? If he’s saying the HE thinks he has overrated them, that can be a fair and true statement. If he refers to others that he feels places too much value on them, that could also be true, in his opinion. But it would be difficult to suggest to those who are succeeding in the Geo space that THEY have overrated them. Geos have their place, local has it’s place, and it’s a very large space. Former Speaker of the House Tip O’neil suggested that “all politics are local”… If MSNBC could be and “feel” as relative to the local communities as the local papers, the papers wouldn’t be trying to create local portals. The local restaurant doesn’t need to be found on a national or global portal, they want to be found on a local website. Same with the car dealership, the hardware store, and most real estate brokerages, etc. Local people do business with local businesses. When this “thing” becomes so huge and built out that nobody will know where to go for what they seek in “their local world”, they will seek out “local” domains. And I dont see “parked” pages as being local, at least not how it should or will be. Local is a smaller pie, of less interest to build out by the bigger players, but that will change over time. We’re a little over a decade into this thing for all intents and purposes. It’s a baby. We look at Google as the holy grail, yet they made $800,000,000 in a recent quarter by giving code to “local” geo website owners to place on their sites.. not for sending traffic, not for PPC, but because this huge company could afford to have the system in place so the local advertiser has to go through them to be seen on a local website. So Google MADE $800,000,000 (50/50) for connecting the advertiser with the website owner, who might be in the building next to them.
Sorry for going on, and getting off track. Guess my point is that YES, it may be true that some have overrated geo domains, but it is likely ALSO true that some may be underestimating them. I think it’s way to early to say that as a whole “they” are overrated. In the end, we are talking about the person(s) who are rating, and not the geos themselves.
Hi Sahar,
The timing was right for this post as I just finished my Domain Names Podcast with Michael & David Castello on the subject of Geo Domains.
It is now live at -
http://www.ozdomainer.com/97/domain-names-podcast-episode-8-with-michael-david-castello/
Cheers
Ed
Yes Absolutely, Geo-Domains are over rated. The absolute power of the world wide web is the fact that one Address is accessible to the world. By using a local Address your penetration market is stymied at best. Market to the largest captive audiences with a platform that attracts, all traffic! The key to the world wide web is mass marketing! Those who unlock the mass marketing formula WIN .
Says the guy who thinks ‘eBiz’ is a common term.
You can look at any market in the world, and local is what drives it. The amount of shopping done local (from dollar stores to real estate) underlines that at the end of the day, most commerce *IS* local driven.
Even cheerleader organizations like Shop.org realize that and are focusing on underlying the online to offline transactions taking place.
I am surprised you cannot figure out what eBiz means. Knowone can figure out what eBay means? WOW Revolutionary !
eBay is a branded term. A branded term seared in everyone’s brain.
eBiz is not. It was a slang term that has gone the way of the dinosaur. Sorry.
Castello, don’t you own IDNs? Most likely geo IDNs…. Sahar says he hates them. What are your view on these geos?
Oh Yes just like direct navigation is an old habit that has gone the way of the dinosaur. It is funny how history repeats itself, isn’t it? What do you know about branding handles? I’m a branding expert what are your credentials? Seriously Get Real and oh yes you don’t have to be sorry for me. I will laugh all the way to the bank. Isn’t this childish? Nah Nah youre it!
Geo domains always represent something real, like a city, that will be increasingly connected to other similar places. Not many domains ensure the right application at the right time at any rate. Each domain that sends users to useless links creates a disincentive to direct navigate in the future, one would think. So amongst certain types of domains geo should be valued to reflect a built-in and unmatured utlity as opposed to declining returns of some others, maybe.
Geo domains are not over-rated. They are among several of the best internet opportunities available. Kind of surprising to see them get talked down a bit in this discussion, and I can’t help but wonder why. We’re well past the point of debate on geo domain value.
Sahar making a point that geo domains, compared to other biz categories, maybe do not stand out as particularly advantagous. This depends entirely on the domain holder, in my view. Until one has walked down the development path and nurtured a domain to full fruition, then you cannot know with certainty how valuable that domain will become. And with geo names, the upside potential is akin to an untapped gold mine. But the gold remains in the ground until extracted.
Regarding posters who think local is marginal, you need to re-educate yourselves because you’re standing out in a Nebraska corn field without a map.
Few weeks ago Rick Latona sold SaintAugustine.com for 60K. Sedo brokered Autograph.com for 55K. Say you have 10 millions to develop a business, with which domain would you rather do it? Say you want to buy related traffic from search engines (web fuel!), with which domain you gonna hit the ceiling after a couple of hundred dollars (scalability issue) vs. others you can literally spend 10K/day and still can scale up?
The same week SaintAugustine.com sold for that price eggs.com was sold for 112K, Alimony.com for 75K. Is Eggs.com only twice as good as SaintAugustine.com? is Alimony.com just marginally better? I know there are examples on both sides of the fence however, what I’m comparing here is some of the best geo domains (city.com, state.com) vs. the best domains on the web. In comparison you would see that many of the best domains on the web often go for the same prices, sometimes less then geo domains (rarely more) and by domainers, in general are in less demand, although they hold extremely better business potential.
I look at the big picture when it comes to domain Addresses. A geo domain is useful for targeting market segments. The web is a whole pie. If your strategy is for targeting a slice of the pie fine. If you are looking to maximize your market penetration, which is the beauty of the world wide web, you will have to pay a premium for an address that universally achieves that goal.
I in no way am saying that geo names are worthless. I am saying that universal names are more valuable. Ebay can attract chinese,Japanese, etc. etc. Whereas Geos are somewhat limited especilly when applied to a vast marketplace for the taking. Peace Brothers and Sisters
Sahar,
In order to answer that question effectively, you would have to know the amount of revenue the markets delivered and a little history.
I would pick SaintAugustine.com over Autograph.com in a NY minute. The autograph market has declined immensely due to fraudulent autographs. The popularity of autographs has also declined among consumers, it is no longer a popular hobby. A bad investment for Autograph.com when you look at the business facts of the industry.
Again fraud has taken the value out of the industry.
SaintAugustine.com on the other hand, has immense value. The history, location, and revenue done in business in the area are the reasons. The value of Saint Augistine will not go down, because its location and what it has to offer, history. SaintAugustine.com is a intimate brand that people know, making it valuable and a great investment. People will always visit and live in this location, where as in the example given, autographs, are a trend that can die and is dying.
It all comes down to the size of the market that you can extract from the domain name. Take OklahomaCity.com for example. $43.1 billion in business transactions in 2005.
The name is universal to everything in the city.
The name is being offered for $800,000. This is cheap when you see the possibilities the name can deliver. Not only see, but put into effect. Of course this takes hard work.
The key is learning how to get your share of the pie. Once you figure that out, the rest is history.
Geo domains remain powerful because of this targeted local trait they possess. Same can be said for LondonHomes.com, ccTLDs, etc. It all comes down to how much is the market worth, and how much can you extract from it with your geo domain.
This reasoning can be applied with any domain. There is money in every industry and niche. It is how you chose the domain and exploit it that will determine your outcome online.
You can own a great generic name, and fail just as with a great geo domain. This happens all the time. Again it all comes down to your business plan and preferences.
All these domains have one key thing in common, all are going to deliver to a local market(s). Geo domains already have this big advantage built in.
Again, you do not have to own the world to reap big rewards.
Steve Morales
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If you think so.. good luck with those beliefs, you will surely need it.
Sahar
Jeff S,
In case you haven’t noticed, everything on the internet is evolving to local targeted. I guess somebody better tell Google.com and Yahoo.com that they are making a big mistake for launching all the local platforms for consumers and getting away from the whole pie concept.
The complete pie is the local market. Observe the online market, before making public stands. Your comments only make you look foolish when you fail to see what is evolving around you.
Universal names are more valuable? Maybe in most cases now. If Geo domains are being sold for their amounts today and competitive with universal names, then imagine how much they will be selling for in 2-4 years. I am not a rocket scientist, but to me it looks like a no brainer and a smart investment.
There are many who say generics are overrated. While they may be, they still hold true value. Geo domains hold true value and remain underrated. In the end, it is all about local.
The whole pie and world wide web terminology went out in the 1990s.
Respectfully,
Steve Morales
MMM:
My brother and I don’t own any IDNs. It’s not because we don’t think they have potential, it’s because we are so backlogged with developing the names we own. Our portfolio is less than a thousand names, but it is easily one of the best in the industry and we currently view it as mostly undeveloped beachfront real estate. Michael and I have never acquired a name we didn’t intend to develop. Today, we seldom buy names and my opinion of names is influenced by my experiences with them.
Steve
You don’t get to be a yahoo or a google with a Geo name. I assure you I am well grounded in marketing and you make some valid points, but reality wins over conjecture.
Sahar,
It has nothing to do with luck. It is called smart investing if your object is to make a ROI off of a name you are acquiring thru a future sale or thru development.
Realestate developers do the same thing before they build multimillion dollar projects. They research the location, demographics of the area(especially median household income), current traffic, and future growth of the area, and competitors in the area to see if it is worth their investment to build Malls, Community’s and shopping centers.
If you do not have an effective system in place to determine the estimated market value of a great domain, then you will make alot of bad investments. (I know, you never make them) Just because a name is generic, does not make it worth the amount of money you paid to acquire it. Generic does not give the name value.
Example: Rocks.com is not worth the same amount as Homes.com. Why? Because of all the reasons I have listed that you say “good luck” to.
What you pay $55k for today, may sell for $35k next year because of the evolution of the market, as well as failing to analyze the future growth before the acquisition. You do not have to worry much if you buy a domain for $3k, $5k, $10k, for the most part. Especially if you buy at registration cost.
However, there has to be some kind of reasoning that you use when paying a large amount for a generic domain, other than it is a generic name. Of course, all this doesn’t matter if you just like the name. That is definitely possible, nothing wrong with that. But this is the exception, and not the rule. If you like everything, you will surely go broke and fail.
“Reasoning for the investment based on facts”
Why am I explaining this to you. You are the expert.
To say good luck with that way of thinking and I will need it, I find very offensive. I guess you think there is only one way to strategic acquitions of a domain?
Please tell us how you place value on a name and how you determine whether to acquire it. I bet you will not be able to describe how you determine value without using the key fundamentals I listed in this post and my last.
Location
Traffic Potential
Future Growth of the Industry
Demographics
Competition
Geodomains are cut and dry. They answer all of these with a little research and let you determine which one is the best to acquire.
Enlighten us please on your way of thinking. I did not use PPC, so you are free to use this in your strategy to acquisition.
This is a proper time to say, “Good Luck”
Respectfully,
Steve Morales
On the issue of local geo vs. general broad category domains, I don’t think they are mutually exclusive. It’s an apples and oranges comparison that really doesn’t serve much purpose. I do understand Sahar’s point in that certain industry domains might present a more appealing opportunity or quicker ROI with easier implementation, compared to a geo domain.
A domain like “insurance.tld” or “hotels.tld” would be highly attractive. But so would “Seattle.tld. Which of these names are over-rated? I would say none of them. They are all top class domains so it comes down to personal preference or one’s aptitude for a certain industry niche. An insurance professional, for reasons specific to his experience, will probably place greater interest/value on Insurance.tld. Why? Because his experience and knowledge of the insurance field would give rise to many immediate, creative ideas filtered through practical experience.
It’s a bit rhetorical to ask if geo names are over-rated. Kind of like “Is beauty really appealing?”
The way I see it, there are probably hundreds of successful local businesses who would find it worthwhile to pay $500 a month to be listed on a market dominant SaintAugustine.com. Other than billing and cashing the checks it could run itself. While clearly a bigger market,i’m not so sure the same could be said for an autograph.com. Dont get me wrong, i’d love to own each of them. But i’m not sure you’ll be able to find the same number of ongoing advertisers willing to pay that kind of money. So you’d have to get less money from a whole lot more people, which would require a much more complex operation. A much more segmented group of sellers. You’d compete with the ebays of the world. Someone would put the plural and other variations out there, etc. Not to say it couldn’t make more money, but it would be more complex, which makes it harder to bring to market for the typlical owner, more involved and expensive to operate. I guess, taken to extremes, would one rather own NewYork.com or Olives.com? I think it really comes down to the resources and intentions of the owner along with other factors such as competition, market trends and the like. In theory, Gold.com became twice as valuable when gold went from $500 to $1000. In the example given, it might be a pretty close call, depending on the sellers and the buyers motivations, which is porbably why the market itself gave us an indication of the value of each, and they were similar.
55K for SaintAugustine.com and every time you contact a business you will have to say, “That is SaintAugustine.com with “Saint” spelled out, not abbreviated. I think Sahar used a good example, when compared to Autograph.com.
Just my opinion…….And I really like Geo domains and I admire Steve’s passion and his Geo network (I’ve learned much through Steve, Michael, and others).
Jeremy:
Good eye. You’re right about SaintAugustine.com. Great name and place, but does the public intuitively go to StAugustine.com or SaintAugustine.com? Do they go to FortLauderdale.com or FtLauderdale.com? SaintLouis.com or StLouis.com? Because of this, unless Michael and I can secure both versions, we shy away from Geodomains that may have more than one publicly accepted spelling.
Don’t forget ‘Lauderdale.com’ - while Augustine.com or Louis.com might not make sense, Lauderdale does.
Although, the version that indeed makes itself the vibrant portal will have many pages out there being indexed, and compelling content, and visits by locals and advertisers, which will help it’s position in many search engines. And locals will learn to know which is the address to go to. More so than a variation on a single parked page. I dont think most second tier cities (in terms of population or nororiety) get enough type in simply due to being the generic to make a ton of money. And someones less apt to invest in trying to compete with you once you’re established. And it’s easier to establish brand when your market is local and when all the companies you want to advertise the site are as well. But, just an opinion.
Robert,
Outstanding comments. This is what everyone fails to see when viewing geo domains. It is not about traffic neccessarily, but the intimate brand to the location consumers will embrace.
You have to effectively develop your geo domain to unlock traffic. There are plenty of outstanding geo domains that get a low amount of type in traffic when compared to generic.com domains.
(Geo domains can not compete with generic.com type-in traffic for the most part. Sahar is on point, if this was a deciding factor on his assessment of geo domains)
You have to build it out so consumers find the site useful and embrace it to see the value geo domains deliver. It can be called anything really, so long as the geo location is included in the domain.
A great example of this is MyrtleBeachNow.com vs MyrtleBeach.com. There is zero traffic to the name MyrtleBeachNow.com when it was first registered. Because they have built it into a useful portal, the site delivers roughly 30k uniques a month. It is all about delivering useful content if you truly want to build exponential traffic to your geo domain. Really, any domain.
You should not underestimate an outstanding geo domain based on the amount of type in traffic is currently receives. The value is in what it will deliver once developed. Geo domains are intimate brands that consumers have a connection with in multiple ways.
Thanks,
Steve Morales
Jeremy,
Good info and points. It is not about my passion, but rather presenting facts to myths that several have of geo domains. I stated before, I have no hidden agenda and am just educating others, with the assistance of so many in this industry, on geo domains.
It is possible that many just do not get it. And what I and others are trying to do in a nonconfrontational manner is place this knowledge on the table for others to digest when they are ready.
We will look back at this dialogue on geo domains, along with others who are doing the same, and see how much value and educational facts were outlined early on.
I agree 100% on your method of investing in the scenario you presented. You have to make the right investing decision based on facts, but common sense has to come into effect as well. However, In this scenario IMO, I would still choose SaintAugustine.com, just because of the declining market of Autographs and the future of the industry. If it were SportsMemorabilia.com, then hands down, would chose that one over SaintAugustine.com.
What it comes down to at the end of the day(regardless of facts) is your preference in investing on certain types of domains. Really, no other opinions matter, it is your money being spent, not theirs.
Hi Sahar
I am a big fan of your blog and what you are doing for the domain business as a whole. I am a bit surprised at your views on Geo domains.
Geo domains are the only kind of domains that bridge the virtual world with the real world in terms of physical property. This means something and over time as virtual environments are created this will add to the intrinsic value that only Geo domains will have.
In effect those that own Geo Domains have put a huge stake in a swath of land in the virtual world that actually exists as land in the real world. Funeral Homes, even cars and jobs, these are all amazing keywords but they do not also represent land and environments in the real world. Geo Domains are BOTH, real land AND virtual land.
This advantage will grow over time as the web progresses. You will be able to create environments where people can conduct all forms of business within ones “virtual” city.
We have not even scratched the surface yet.
Keep up the great work and thanks for spurring such great debate.
—-answer—-
Hi Brian, and thanks for the kind words.
Many tend to misunderstand when I suggest something is over rated. I’m not suggesting these domains are not good, far from it. I’m saying in comparison to other domains in other categories and in relation to the prices and demand for them today, they are over rated.
As far as your description for virtual worlds and bridging the gap, it is development and execution that makes the difference, not a domain. SecondLife meant very little few years ago, now it is a mega company. In such a case, the domain has very little to do with the success of the venture. As a matter of fact, if you are to build such a virtual world, a generic domain name such as “city”.com is probably worse than a made up (distinctive) brand, simply for the fact your brand growth potential, if using a geo domain, would then be limited to the geographical location with a product which can serve a worldwide market.
Cheers
Sahar
We have no problem with Nashville.com being limited to all things Nashville
This reply comes a bit late and I have only read just over half of the posts.
Background, I bought my first geodomain in 1997, it is a suburb.com in a very famous tourist destination. I have been on the geodomain trail ever since, I even passed up seeing santacruz.com was available around this time as this is where I visited when I first though of the idea.
I have not joined Associated Cities but do follow their news and updates and think that such an association is a good thing, punting new ideas and networking with others in the geo domain owners club
Even as a suburb.com owner in the geo domain space I have found success, not with a parking ppc page but with a developed site offering all the verticals.
The reason for this is that as soon as you have a developed site that direct traffic visitors expect to see, the site automatically starts being spoken about and used.
On to my question / pot stir.
The new .anything domain extensions being available to register at the beginning of 2009 I think will be the ultimate/only justifiable competitor to geo.com owners with regard to direct traffic as well as the effect they will have on google ranking
CON: they will be available on auction to the highest bidder and I can see favourable .geo names going for a fair amount of money,
PRO: this automatically gives a high value to the current geo.com owner as a base price (although Im sure many of you geo.com owners out there will not sell for 100 times the reserve auction amount) and a pretty large investment for anyone who wants to compete in the geo.com space with their new .geo - which means they will be the big players
im reckoning media companies, travel companies and even hotel groups would have vested interests in purchasing such new names
On the flip side, it provides instant recognition to the geo.com domain space and watch this space - they will be very much underrated when you see the amounts that will be paid for the new .geo domains
thanks
I’m really late to this article but let me say that owning a geodomain is incredible. If you park such a site, you’re missing a superb opportunity. My wife and I run a site based on a tourist hot spot on the East Coast and couldn’t be happier. We add content such as Virginia Beach Restaurants and Virginia Beach Hotels. While this cannot be said for every site, it’s quite possible (and normal for those I speak with) for a geodomain to have revenues in the seven figures. Again, not every geosite would qualify for this but there are quite a few of us in that category.
Hi Sahar
This certainly is an interesting post you’ve had going on. I hope you are well?
I know I have come in very late to this post but just wanted to add that there is still a lot of opportunity in the UK for industry location geo domains for example I have just reg’d a load of car parking domains, for airports.
If people focus on niches then there are still opportunities to be had away from location dotcoms. Plus industry location ccTLDs require little effort from an SEO point of view to get them to rank.
Speak soon
Gary